Jean Nangwala: Survivor-Advocate and Artist

In this special episode, Nikole Lim talks to Jean Nangwala. Jean shares her experience of growing up in Zambia, the expectations for women and girls in her culture, and her continuing journey of healing and thriving as a survivor and advocate for people experiencing sexual violence.

Jean Nangwala is a singer, speaker, survivor-advocate, and creative producer. Born and raised in Lusaka, Zambia, her passion for social justice stems from her personal experience of injustice and witnessing the same inequality across the globe. Her mission is to empower women to come together and alleviate systems that perpetuate social injustice. She uses music and dance to inspire others to find liberation through art. Soni, Jean's single heard at the end of this episode, can be found on all streaming platforms.

Nikole Lim is a speaker, educator, author, and the founder and international director of Freely in Hope. You can learn more about Nikole's work in her book Liberation Is Here: Women Uncovering Hope in a Broken World.

Content warning: This episode includes conversations about sexual violence.

Instagram: @jean.nangwala
Twitter: @jean.nangwala
Website: Talesofablackgirl.com

Vector Illustration by: ReAl_wpap
Music by: @siryalibeats 

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Transcript

Patrick Reyes: Welcome to another episode of the Sound of the Genuine, FTE’s podcast on how religious leaders find meaning and purpose in their lives. I'm Dr. Patrick Reyes. 

And today we have a guest host in Nicole Lim, who you may remember from her own episode of the Sound of the Genuine, who's going to sit down with Jean Nangwala. They were able to have a live conversation at the Christian Leadership Forum this last summer in Atlanta. Jean as a singer, speaker, survivor advocate, a creative producer. She has a passion for social justice and I am so inspired by this conversation and grateful. So without further ado, take it away, Nikole. 

Nikole: Hello everybody. My name is Nikole Lim. I am the international director of Freely in Hope and the author of Liberation is Here. And today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Jean Nangwala and I've known her for over half of her life. In ministry context, we met each other about 14 years ago and have grown together - I've grown in learning what it looks like to be a better advocate with survivors of sexual violence. And today, I want to speak with her, as someone that I've mentored along the way, so that we can learn of the many beautiful things and transformative things that she has challenged me with in this journey towards survivor advocacy. Welcome! 

Jean: Thank you for having me. 

Nikole: So part of Jean's story is what helped me move into my vocation working as a survivor advocate, but I wanted to hear more of Jean's story even before we met and how that story has formed and shaped her before. So tell me more about where did you grow up? How did you grow up and what was that like? 

Jean: I grew up in a small compound, here I don't know if they call it suburb or ghetto but in Zambia we call them compounds. So I grew up in a small compound called Linda in Lusaka. And growing up, everybody knew everyone. So if you got into trouble, the Aunty on the roads can like discipline you because she's also kinda like your mom. So I grew up in a community like that where everyone was just so integrated. So I'm Bemba and my mom is Tonga. There's a certain passage of rights that women go through when you're young and the girls would dance in just like a skirt and like beads around them and they would dance out to just be like, oh yeah, I've come of age and things like that.

And so when I was younger, it was so impressive to see how women are so free in their body to dance and everyone would celebrate them like on that stage when it's like the rites of passage, but then when you get home, like something different was happening. You weren't as celebrated as you were when you onstage and dancing. It was your moment and then later on, it was like, oh yeah, as a woman, just like, you know, you sit and you behave and you're quiet, and you hide. So that was interesting for me to see that juxtaposition going on in my culture growing up. And so when I was younger, I always knew that I wanted to be powerful. I was like that power that was happening when I was…when that woman was dancing - my mom being Christian, she didn't want us to have the right of passage like that. So I was like, oh, I'll never do that, but I want that same power. I want to stand in my authentic self, not completely naked, but it's like in my authenticity, like that's nakedness for me. It's like I want to stand in that, but fully embrace myself and be happy and powerful and not be this hidden and silent woman. So growing up, I was trying to figure that out. 

Nikole: So growing up in a community where you feel like you have to hide, especially your body, how did that shape your view of self, moving into your teenage years? How did culture also influenced the way that you shaped and formed your teenage years? 

Jean: I knew the women were powerful in my culture, like we all knew to be scared of mom, but when we're out there, would speak of dad more because he's the man of the house. Anything that has to bring pride and all that stuff has to first start with my dad's name. So it was very strange. But then when I got sexually assaulted, this body that was meant to be celebrated now it became even more…ugly. Or meant to be hated even more because I was taught like be silent and be pure. There was a sense of like, oh, I've lost my purity because that's what they said. They said, if my body's not touched, I'm this person that could be celebrated. I always wanted women to be celebrated. In that moment. I felt, oh, now this chance or this opportunity to be myself is gone - like completely gone. So my culture that contributed to me like finding myself in a sense of…I knew I could talk to my grandmother, like all the women in my culture - that I could talk to them about like I'm struggling with this.

But again, there was a disconnect because after that conversation, I still felt lost and I still felt like something wrong. Like you really took away my one opportunity to be like, I am the woman. Sorry, I don't know if that answers your question.

Nikole: So when trauma happens, right, that completely shatters our sense of self. What has your journey looked like in terms of reforming that and reshaping it according to how you feel, God sees you and you see yourself as opposed to how culture has shaped you?

Jean: I remember when the first incident happened. Like two pastors come to my house, my family's house, and they said, oh yeah, we heard what happened, but it was very low key. [whispered] Like oh, we heard what happened, uh, let's pray. And then they prayed and then they were gone and I was like, huh? Is that how God is? Like, I thought you said you would never leave but it feels like in this moment, you're just like, yeah I just want you to know that I'm here then I'm out. But then when I started singing, when I’d singing gospel music, I felt him closer. I knew for a fact that the God I praised doesn't see me any different after my trauma. And it's from this place of pain that he could transform and bring something out. And actually a lesson for my family to learn from, and for others to say, like, this is an issue, and I know you tell us to be silent, but silence isn't working anymore.

And so I wanted to see more women who are speaking up. I remember wanting to speak up at church and be like, oh, I have a testimony to say. And somebody being like, oh, we know you're going to talk about rape. No. And they told me that, and I was like, oh wait a minute! We're going to talk about this even more now, because now I see that you are uncomfortable having conversations that are actually affecting women. And I think that's not what God wants for me. And I think that's not what God wants for his society and his people. And I started speaking on it and my mom, this was like the turning point for me, that I knew that Tales of a Black Girl needed to happen. Like conversations around culture, conversations around coming of age, conversations around rape, sex, all that needed to happen.

And my mom said, if you hadn't spoken up, you wouldn't have known…like she told me, I stopped having sex with your dad for a while, because I thought a man like you harmed my daughter in that way. And your dad in that moment become the perpetrator - like I saw him as that. And it was hard for me to have those conversations because no one was having those conversations. It was hard for parents who've had kids who have gone through sexual violence [to] even have conversations like that. And I remember just like talking to her and even seeing how their marriage then transformed after she became more open to me and how they interacted at the house. Like things were different.

And I was like, oh, this was also important for them as a couple. This is important for me to continue singing because this is how I connect to God. Cause at first I had stopped because it felt like I can't communicate with you if you are only present to “pure” girls and I'm not pure anymore. Cause you said if my body has been touched, it's contaminated. So, I guess I don't have to talk to you? So I knew hard conversations were important for my relationship with God, but also important for my community to continue living a healthy life or my family having a healthy life or healthy relationships. 

Nikole: And this is why it's so important to ensure that the theology that we live into is transformative in a way that heals and brings life because situations of trauma affects everyone in the system not just the person. It affected your mom, it affected her relationships. It affects the community. And you said silence is not working anymore. Which means it's affecting so many other little girls as well, that have been silenced from the trauma of oppression and sexual violence.

And seeing that in you, you were only 13, 14 years old when you were just starting to voice your story and wanting to do more publicly within church spaces, through your music, through community programs to provide sexual violence prevention education for other girls. That's what inspired me to partner in your vocation actually. So I, like, I always say I found my vocation or the vocation found me. You found me. 

Jean: I don't even know why I spoke to you that day.

Nikole: No, yeah we weren't friends. 

Jean: Yeah, we were not. 

Nikole: And you had not talked to me that entire week that we were together, but also because you were not talking to me, I was determined. I was like this is the one: The angry, the sassy, the closed up girl. And this is how it is, right, in a lot of mentoring relationships where you like, see the younger version of yourself in some way, and you also know why they're behaving… or yeah, why their personalities manifesting a certain way. Cause a lot of it is to hide that authentic, powerful self, because culture tells you that you can't. So I saw that in you just as much as I saw that in me, which is why I was like, okay, we're going to be...one day we're going to be friends. 14 years later, we're still here. But anyway.

So when you first told me that story I think what I was so enamored by was the fact that you told me with a solution. You weren't telling me for pity. You weren't telling me just to be like, whatever…this happened. But you were telling me with a solution of wanting to speak up and to raise your voice above the silence so that you can provide new theology, new frameworks, new ways of being and living for girls to reclaim their power. How has that journey of transformation looked like for you moving from that culture of silence to then finally speaking up and like to the woman you are today? 

Jean: Oh, that's interesting. I think it's something that I discovered through this journey of speaking up, for me speaking up is powerful. Like it makes me feel seen and heard and like ready to heal. And I'm like, okay, this is one block that I pass. And then next thing we're going to talk about, let's talk about PTSD, like you face trauma and you struggle with PTSD. How does that look like? That for me is therapeutic and I feel like it's my calling to like continue speaking on, issues that women in communities that silenced them. However, I discovered that in the same cultures, there are different ways that women still express themselves that are loud enough, but people do not pay attention. And this is through their clothes or how they dress, their fashion, their hair. Being a black woman, like how we present ourselves with like our hair tells a whole new story and something like that. And I remember just feeling okay, I do life from a perspective of like a survivor, how would it look like if I stepped out and listened to another survivor and say what are you doing to help you in your healing process?

Because I would tell you, from a perspective of a Zambian woman, a perspective of a Linda girl who was sexually assaulted a couple of times, while you would come from a whole different country. You have a whole different culture. So speaking up for you, like having your voice heard looks different for you. And how can we both bring our different perspectives in the same place and hope that a girl that looks like you can find herself?

And so my journey to that was I'm going to open Tales of a Black Girl. And in Tales of a Black Girl we're going to talk about all these issues. We're going to talk about certain phrases I grew up hearing thinking they were normal, but knowing that they actually contributed to how I felt less of a person. Talking about how we've actually normalized abuse, we've normalized, you know, sexual jokes, we've normalized sexual harassment in our community.

It's like let's talk about that. If you are going to start feeling uncomfortable and look at yourself and say, oh, I I mean, I touch on her when she passes in the office. Like if that makes you think twice, that's the whole point. I want you to think twice about your actions because There was lack of intentionality around women that have gone through abuse. That's why they fell in the crack or they stopped speaking up or no one wants to share, or somebody told them - like I was told – you’re about to talk about rape. No. Because actually, maybe you're uncomfortable because you know what, you're doing something that you shouldn't be doing. And so for me I had to come to a place to understand that my voice is different. There'll be a few people that will relate to me and that's fine. And then the next person will speak and there'll be girls like her that people will relate to her. And at least I would do my part for Tales of a Black Girl, I will do my part.

So opening Tales of a Black Girl was an opportunity to say, I need to play my part for somebody else to relate and move forward. And I was like, this is an important conversation that's not happening in church. I know for a fact, growing up, everything that was said in church, I believed. And I stood by it because my faith was important. So I wished somebody spoke about sexual violence in church, because I would have, for sure, known that I know there’s someone who will hold my hand and someone who understands how it feels. I'd have believed that. 

And so because I didn't see that person, I was ready to say, I know you're going to feel uncomfortable, but I'm going to be that person. So in the moment, as you were shaking and being like, why is she talking about this - we don't talk about this in church, I'm hoping that two years down the line, this a normal conversation for you. I'm hoping two years, three years down the line, you have curriculums that help you in your church to foster conversations that are hard.

It could be anything that's not sexual violence. There is something like these dynamics of power that still exist right now that continue to oppress a certain group of people, whether it's women, whether it's, the LGBT community, like there is something going on in your church that needs hard conversations. I was like, yeah, I want to write curriculums around that. I want people to have these conversations and I know they're not going to like me the first time. It's fine - don't like me. But you will like the next person that comes after me because now you understand, you are aware. 

And because of lack of knowledge, that's why we act the way we act. That's why ignorance continues to go on. That's my journey. My journey is that of learning so that I could teach and somebody else will be comfortable enough to use their voice as well and learn and teach. And that way it's like a whole movement. And we continue and we can hopefully when I have a child, my child will live in a better better church, a better community. 

Nikole: So the power of education undoes ignorance that exists in a lot of our communities and cultures. But I think also the power of your story and the power of your lived experiences informs us of better solutions for how we could work together to build this more free and just world for other girls and people at the margins. What is Tales of a Black Girl and how does Tales of a Black Girl hope to pursue this calling and mission as grows? 

Jean: So Tales of a Black Girl is a platform where I talk about hard conversations from a Zambian perspective and just like perspective of a black woman. It's just a platform of, I know this is something that you could not talk about with anyone, but hey, I am here. I'm that person who is open to say let's talk about it. Like, let's have that conversation. And I hope somebody relates and learn from it. 

[It] First started as a way to talk to my baby sister. I live in the states while she's back home in Zambia so we don't talk as much. But there's also this dynamic where your older sister, you have to respect your older sister a certain way. You can't talk to your older sister about sex, about relationships. You can't do that because you have to have your good girl pants on like the whole time around her.

And I remember falling into traps, like growing up, where older men…Let me say this, growing up, everyone aspired for marriage. And I think marriage is beautiful, but they use the word of you should act right like this so that you can get married. You should do this so that you can get married. Don't do your hair like that, don't dress like that. Like the thought of marriage was used as a way to keep you in a box. And young men knew that. And older man knew that too. And I remember being just a 16-year-old and meeting an older man. I mean, he was old for a 16-year-old, but now it's like it's a 32 year old coming to a 16 year old and saying, be my girlfriend because I have my stuff together and I will marry you. Like we'll date for four months and we'll get married. And I was like, oh yeah, I believe that! Like, cool! And how that turned into an abusive relationship. But I didn't know better I was like, oh, I'm going to be the ideal woman. Knowing that I was, you know, the girl who wasn't pure.

I was like, oh, if I end up being married, this will be great! This'll be like proof that even unpure girls, in quotations, can achieve this big thing. I saw how it really harmed me at the age of 16. And my cry for hope was, oh my God, my baby sister is going to be is 15 years old now. She's she's a teenager. Now she's going to be approached by people like that.

And they're going to tell her, about all this prospects of like marriage or tell her that she's not good enough for this. Or somebody might sexually harass her and she would not know what to do. And I can't have that. Cause that happened to me and I can't see that happen again. And so I started off as I will record this videos. You will watch them on YouTube, because, hey, you're going to watch because you're supporting your older sister, but at the end of the day, I hope you get the message. And I hope you see that you're more than that. And when you do get married, when you're older, like it'll happen on your terms. You will not end up in this unhealthy, sexually abusive relationships at a young age because of this notion.

And so I started off like that. And then I saw that I was not the only one who was having a hard time expressing themselves, who was having a hard time having difficult conversations with family, who was struggling with PTSD from trauma, who was struggling with how do I thrive after facing trauma for so long? How do I look at myself and say, I am Jean Nangwala first, before I say, oh, I'm a sexual violence survivor? How do I get there? And having those conversations was also therapeutic, like transformative. 

I found my healing because then I found my voice and I understood what happened to me was not my fault. And it put a lot of things into perspective and I wanted that for women, for people who've gone through trauma. I wanted that for them and I wanted that for their siblings and their kids. My baby sister still says I embarrass her, but that's okay. She's 18 now. She's surviving. So it's important to me to see that other young girls, especially who've grown up in poor areas, that they can see that they have more options than just when you finish high school, if you get married and become a mother, then that's your way out of poverty. There's more for you. 

Nikole: Yeah. I highly recommend Tales of a Black Girl for anyone in their teen years, but even young adult years, I think these are really important conversations. especially for African, but also first gen, second gen immigrants. Yeah, who are wrestling with reconciling the culture of their parents and the culture that they want to build. 

Jean: Oh yeah. That's been an interesting journey this year. It's like, I had to learn not just to use my voice when talking about issues that affected me, but to use my voice in, you know, like redefining myself, to use my voice in like standing up in a place where as an immigrant people see you differently, or they already have like perceptions of you. So like being able to say, I'm done with the African people stereotype, so I would tell you who I am and you will get it from me. I will let you know who I am and you will talk to me with respect and you will understand me. 

Redefining yourself or having a voice does not just end with healing from trauma. I want a healthy life. And so I'm not going to have microaggressions, that give me an unhealthy life while I am a working hard to heal from trauma. I ain't got time! Those are too many things going on at the same time. I just cannot.

Tales of a Black Girl also touches on issues like growing into yourself in whatever space you are. Because imposter syndrome will be there and it will follow you. How do we continue to still remember that yes, I'm Zambian in a different culture, but I can still stand authentically myself, learn from the people around me, but not leave myself, leave my culture to conform to a whole different culture so that I'm accepted. There's beauty in just your unique culture that you bring to the space. 

Nikole: Absolutely. I think we want to be careful to not demonize the cultures that we came from because they formed us in so many powerful and beautiful ways. And even though yes, there's things that we want to change, especially as it relates to patriarchy, especially as it relates to sexual violence and how women view themselves, there are actually hidden gifts within each of our cultures that I think can give us a little bit of a solution or a ticket to what that future could look like. When you first started your story, you actually began with a story of cultural dance and how that, yeah empowered you. So tell me more about how that experience still forms you today and what you hope to do with Tales of a Black Girl. 

Jean: Oh yeah. They're the same experience, like dance, coming into yourself, like expressing that through music. I still do that. I will dance everywhere and everywhere and I'm embarrassing, but it's okay. I am happy about it because it just keeps me connected to my people. My people, we're the people of the water. That's what Bemba people are known for, but we're also known for dance and that's so important for us even like our traditional ceremony that happens like in August, all of that is all about dance and it's important for me. But also learning about my history and my people. I actually found out that it was women that were in power for a very long time. Most chiefs were women. 

And there was a sense of respect that was given to them and yes, of course, patriarchy came and did its thing, but women have always been powerful in my culture. So for me, it was like, wow, these women carry a lot of knowledge. The women were the ones that were teaching you stuff. You sit around the fire, they are the one telling you stories while they teach you how to cook. There's so much community that happens and that collective wisdom that happens around just like sitting in my culture, that to date, I feel like if people want to get to know me, like have food there and let's sit around and I will tell you all about my life. The passage of knowledge happened through that or at church and things like that. That's something that I also want to continue it's like when people are talking about conversations, it's like, we've always had conversations. And I think it's important that we continue having conversations.

Nikole: Oh that’s so good!

Jean: It's just that now we have, an opportunity to put it out there because our history is through oral message. So, it's like now YouTube, that that's like your way of also sharing your history. So conversations are just a part of my culture that I want to continue. 

Nikole: That's beautiful because it's the sharing of knowledge through dance, through songs, through faith as well that you grow up with. And now you're taking that same tradition and channeling it into a YouTube channel through performance, through incorporating new theologies that are actually more liberating and freeing for a women to really live into their authentic self. 

Jean: That's the whole point.

Nikole: So, what would you say to another woman who might feel like they are on that journey as well of living into their authentic self, perhaps they've experienced trauma, of sexual violence as well. What would you say to them as they're embarking on this journey? 

Jean: Something I had to learn for myself was it's okay when you get cheered and it feels like, Wow - I've put in so much work, why do I feel like crying again? You don't have to carry the whole world on your shoulder and it might feel like that when you're the first person to start something. Or when you're starting that particular initiative, because it's yours and you're spearheading it at one point, it'll feel so heavy and then you feel like you have to carry it all by yourself. You shouldn't, you actually shouldn't. It's fine to have moments to say this part of me, especially with sexual violence. There's a part where it's like, yeah, this part of me is healed and I can talk about this, but it's still your story. And the story has stages. It's continuous. It goes on and on. So it's fine to say this part is healed and I can talk about this, but this part I'm not ready yet. When I'm there, I'll talk about it. 

Because I feel like when I first started speaking up against sexual violence, I felt that I needed to be the person everywhere - whenever you needed, I needed to be there. I needed to talk about all aspects of it; the healing process, the triggers, all that stuff. And I forgot that I was the person who went through that. I'm that person who experienced that pain. And I'm that person who is healing and trying and getting to a place where they're thriving. Like, I'm that person. So I cannot separate myself. And it's okay for moments where I'm not okay. And it's okay for moments where I'm like, this is like the best I could tell you right now. And whoa, I hope you can go get yourself mentors to walk alongside you. Like we should always have community because you cannot do it all by yourself.

You should have people that can stand with you when you're not feeling well. You should have people that pour into you when you are ready to stand and speak up. You should have people as well, who said you've played your part and the next person is going to carry it on. And that's fine. 

Nikole: Community of support, community of belonging, community of healing. For those of us, folks like me, who are hoping and trying to be that community of support for survivors of sexual violence - faith leaders, professors, friends of survivors, what do you want us to know?

Jean: You will never fully understand the person's experience and that's okay. I found people where they're like, oh yeah, I have worked with survivors for years, I know how this feels. I'm like, ah, excuse me? You, you do? You will never fully understand and that is also unfair on yourself to put such pressure on yourself to be like I've been in this space and I walk with a survivor, so I'm the best person to continue working with them. Sometimes you might cause more harm doing that. And it's okay to separate yourself and say, look...secondary PTSD is real. 

Advocates, allies, as they are working with survivors can forget themselves because they’re protecting and taking care of the survivor. And when you do that, how do you then pour into the survivor health, or love, or support when you've run dry? And so for me, it's like important for allies and advocates to take care of themselves as well. And it's important if you have a platform where they can tell the story, they can share, they can lead, give it to them. You don't have to be their spokesperson. I really do not like when people say I'm the voice of the voiceless. I don't understand how you're the voice of the voiceless, because if they're voiceless, they would find a way to communicate though. Right? I feel, strongly feel, everyone has a voice and just because we're not ready does not make you their mouthpiece.

But it was okay that you held that candle for them in that moment. And when it's time that they are ready, pass it over. And it's ok to say, okay, my journey is done with you. Let me move on and do something else or walk with another survivor. Because there's need out there! And so for advocates, really take care of yourself. You can only give out the best when you give yourself the best. If not, you will harm the people you are working with and that's even more detrimental to just yourself and the community you're serving. 

Nikole: Thank you for the honor of walking with you all of these years, 14 years of learning and growing together. To better advocate, not only for ourselves, but for our larger community. Tales of a Black Girl on YouTube, talesofablack girl.com is the short link. 

Jean: Thank you for having me. 

Nikole: And how else can we support the work that you do? 

Jean: Well, if you need somebody to write a curriculum for you I'm here - definitely reach me on JeanNagawa.com. Like I'm there. I will write that curriculum. You want facilitation? I am there! Sometimes I will say no, because I also need to take care of myself, but when I'm good I got you! 

And my songs, my songs are out on all social platform actually. I still can't get over the fact that I have a song. My song is called Soni, which means shy. And then it just talks about how this girl found her authentic self in like living, living as you know, like truly herself through dance and music. My late grandmother used to love it when I would sing. Losing her just reminded me of what joy people bring in their own talents and their own authenticity. And for me, that's dance and music. And so that song was a start to say, I'm going to do music and I'm going to take it seriously from now on. And this is the first one to remind myself that there's joy in who I am. 

Patrick: I want to thank our guest host Nikole Lim for hosting this conversation with her friend Jean Nangwala. I want to thank you, the listener, for spending some time with us here on the Sound of the Genuine. And if you enjoyed this conversation, do us a favor and leave us a five star review. It helps put this show into the world. 

I want to thank my team, our executive producer, Elsie Barnhart, and Heather Wallace. And because this is a special episode and Jean is a performer, we’ve given @siryalibeats the week off and we’re going to listen to some of Jean’s music. We’ll see you next time on the Sound of the Genuine.