K. Monet Rice-Jalloh: Heeding the Inner Call

This week, Dr. Reyes talks to Rev. Dr. K. Monet Rice-Jalloh about her early call as a young girl in a context that did not affirm women in ministry. She recounts tales of skipping school to go to church and then later to audit classes in religion and theology at the local college. Her fascination with deep questions and her compassion are a natural fit for ministering to and with students and the academic community she serves. 

K. Monet is an associate university chaplain at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, NC. She is also vice president of the Association for Chaplaincy and Spiritual Life in Higher Education (ACSLHE) and an ordained minister in the Baptist tradition. 

Vector Illustration by: ReAl_wpap
Music by: @siryalibeats

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Transcript

Patrick: I am Dr. Patrick Reyes. And today we are going to sit with Reverend K. Monet Rice-Jalloh who is an incredibly brilliant preacher, campus minister, entrepreneur. She just absolutely inspires so much so that we had a long conversation before this episode aired about her call to ministry and the role that FTE played in helping her discern that call. She traveled to a lot of cool places, met a lot of cool people and you’ll hear a little bit about that throughout this episode. 

Before we get to K. Monet's story I just want to plug one of FTE’s resources. Since K Monet is a chaplain at wake forest university, we have a book for aspiring campus ministers and chaplains. You can head on over to www.fteleaders.org and look for Campus Ministry: Exploring Meaning and Purpose in College. You can also find that anywhere books are sold. If you are discerning a call to campus ministry, this book is for you.

And now let's listen to how K. Monet explored her call to become a chaplain at Wake Forest University.

Well, you're talking about sustaining ministry. Did you always want to do ministry? Take me back to your beginning. What did you want to be when you grew up? 

K. Monet: When I was four, I already felt the call to ministry. But I am from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and I grew up in a church, a National Baptist Incorporated church that does not affirm women in ministry. Matter of fact, they are very clear, that is witchcraft. You know at no point should you ever sit under the voice of a woman. I'm growing up with and there's always this, Oh God, in my spirit. Like, well surely the Lord is not calling me to that?

As I tried to make sense of it probably through my adolescence, I was like maybe God wants me to teach cause that's what women could do. Women could teach! But I ain't like kids and they always wanted women to teach kids. But I didn't really like lean into the spaces where women were usually pushed. But I showed gifts for ministry, right? And so there were always these women's auxiliaries or women's ministries or even when I was younger I could be like the president of these ministries. And of course I would then go for that because you get to give an address at the end of the year and at the state convention. And so I could give the president's address for the organization and I could address the entire body of folk but only in that space and only in that way. And, of course, from a podium from the floor, right? 

So I always discerned these gifts for ministry and was often trying to figure out and to make sense of the reality of people do not affirm women in ministry, I feel these gifts for ministry, let me make sense of it. I also [had] just kind of this little duality, I realized now, it just…it was just life - of being a very good student but also a very horrible like student at the same time. So like I got great grades, I was a perfect, you know, athlete, all of these things, but I loved to skip school. Cause I didn't like the lunch, cause I had other things to do. Being in Tuscaloosa, my high school was not far from the University of Alabama. So starting like my junior year of high school I would like skip a course or two and just go over to the university. You know, I'm gonna just sit in on a course of two with the religion department. And I would talk to the professor and be like, hey, I'm skipping school, but I'm at school, so just let me do this. And they were like, oh, okay. So I realized now that would have been auditing, right. I was auditing the courses 

So yes, I'm over at the University of Alabama auditing this religion and philosophy course. One day the professor was late and she came in with like her kid and her dog and was like sorry, I'm late you know sitter, blah blah blah. And her kid just sat there and then the dog just walked up and down the aisle and everybody's petting the dog and she just didn't miss a beat! I was like you can bring your kids and your dogs if you're a professor? Oh, that's what I need to do in life! I need to be a professor - not because I wanted to be a professor, but because I wanted to like have kids and have a dog and bring them to work and no one bats an eye. That's it! That's the way my, my adolescent mind, my teenage mind put this together. So at that point I was like okay, word. So this is what I'll do. I'll be a professor of history because I had a thing for early church history. Showing ‘intellectual proclivities at an early age,’ my mother would allow me to go to the bookstore, right? And that's where I’d meet up with my little boyfriend but I was at the bookstore so it was okay. So I would go to the bookstore and I had interests in African-American studies at the time. So in the 10th grade, racialized incident, I had to go to the office. And the guidance counselor was like, you don't need to go back to class, you can come here during the period and I will create a reading list for you and I'll report back to the teacher after we've discussed it. 

K. Monet: And I realized now on this side of it, that all of these things are shaping life in ministry. And she assigned to me The Isis Papers by Dr. Francis Cress Welsing and I am telling you this book was inappropriate for my age group, but it was incredibly appropriate for my age group, right? And it just started this, this fascination of moving through African-American studies and African-American anthropological studies. And one day I must have wandered too far to the right and ended up between African-American or African and African-American and Bible, and I pulled a book by a man called Origen and there began a love affair that lasted far into seminary. And I was like, who is this early church father? This desert father, this...I've never heard of such theology! But that started the conversation on mind, body, and spirit and how we read scripture that opened up the Bible for me in a very different way. Don't forget I'm still in high school, still at this church that don't affirm women in ministry and I'm having these deep philosophical conversations with other college students. And of course with other young men who were interested in ministry, interested in seminary and who are telling me, wow, you'd make a good pastors wife. Or, you know, you'd make a great professor. And I'm like, yeah, cause I could bring my kids and my dog so that makes sense. Again this starts from age four and I'm asking even from age four all the way throughout, these heavy theological questions that no one had answers for. And for me, it wasn't that those things scared me away, it was that, oh, I'm gonna go get the answers because you know in the same way that some people play church when they're a little kid, I played correcting these pastors on their bad theology. Like that was like always my fantasy. I don't know other people's fantasies, but I'm like, yeah, and then I'm gonna stand up in the church on the pews and be like, “You are wrong! That it's not what the text says,” you know? And so here I am moving through high school, going into college and I still continue to like major in history and I start to do the foreign languages. I was in Biblical Hebrew in undergrad. I did five hours of Koine Greek while I was an undergrad because I was also an athlete. Maybe my first year of being an athlete and an undergrad I may have partied a little bit too much. And in my partying too much, my GPA may have suffered. 

 So when the Lord came and got me, because my coach literally had a ‘come to Jesus’ conversation that made me come to Jesus. He is right, I do have more potential than this! I knew that my GPA could not get me into grad school cause I messed it up so bad that first semester, freshman year. 

And I knew that the languages would help me make the argument to say I can do the work. My GPA doesn't say I could do the work, but I can do the work. So I did the biblical languages while I was an undergrad and I was actually writing for, uh, history like grant type of thing while I was still there and you were supposed to write about why you're so passionate about studying history. I'm writing something out. I'm like, I'm deeply passionate about history. And when I wrote it, it felt like a lie. No, I'm not really deeply passionate about history. I was like, I'm deeply passionate about church history. Actually no, it's like the deep things of theology. So it's like, I'm trying to write for this one thing and as I'm telling my truth, I realized it's this other shoe over here. And what you really want is to be able to talk about God and get paid for it. That's actually your ideal. And so I was like, all right, well we'll go to seminary. And it was while I was on the recruitment portion of viewing different seminaries that, in a devotional moment, God shows up and was like, oh, here's the okie-doke actually. No, I really do want you to do ministry. There's going to be some preaching in this, and that was quite a wrestling, to say, are you crazy God? You know they will crucify me. They will call me a witch but they'll use the B word instead.

Like this doesn’t work. And it was a bit of a struggle for quite some time cause I've told everyone the first woman I heard preach was me. Like the first time I preached. And it took years for me to realize actually if I changed my understanding of what I've been doing this whole time, all those addresses and president's addresses, I've been preaching for a long time from the floor and from a podium, right? Not the pulpit. And that basically is the journey into how I got to ministry. And so, so much of early ministry was unlearning the wrinkles that come into the brain that say you cannot, you shall not, you should not and there are times even now in my adulthood where I'm realizing I'm still knocking down those doors. It is exhausting. It is a formula for burnout though, when you're continuously trying to be the most credentialed the most qualified, to preach the best. sermons that cannot be picked and pulled apart by those who will say, oh, but women, you know? 

Patrick: My follow-up question really is if you get this call at four and you're carrying this all the way through, and you're being affirmed by God, the divine - or at least having these conversations that you’re called to do ministry, to preach, to do this in a system that's not affirming of that. Do you have voices that are affirming that call? 

K. Monet: In the midst of all of this there were always the quiet whispering rebel women who could see it and who could affirm this, included, you know my father. My father is a male chauvinist feminist and I say that like in humor but also like dead serious, right? Cause he was like, ‘you know a woman's place is in the kitchen - if she can cook! If she can't, I can cook.’ You know, it's just like wait - wait what did you just do? 

You know he's just like yeah, ‘cause you know a woman should always do such and such, unless she can't. You know, then I can do it.’ And I'm just like I'm really confused by this. So my family were never forthrightly like yeah, do whatever you want to do. It was more like what are you doing? All right, well let me get my baseball bat just in case. Cause they always understood the literal dangers of it, right? Especially, for me as a young woman. It does help that I had a cousin who was close enough in age who was kind of leading the way. So when I was still in high school, he was here at Morehouse in undergraduate. And then from there he went to San Francisco Theological Seminary so he could talk me through like how to apply for seminary, et cetera. And being in seminary for him expanded his understanding for women in ministry and could give the arguments because…and I still went kicking and screaming because I was like, “oh God they will crucify me for this.” So this is a reason why I talk about cultivating courage. You know along the way there are always these whispers these people, you know, "I see you, you keep going." And you know, in that very way that black Baptist folk do, they stick a couple of dollars in your hand? You know, that's their way of affirming you to say, here's a couple of dollars - you keep going. And that was enough, you know, with my dad as long as he was in my corner, I could do pretty much anything. My mom, like many women, was much slower. And she and I actually ended up in one of those good drag-out fights. But my mom is a little bit more polished and proper so I knew not to like go head on in this. I invited her to lunch my treat, you know, that first time you do that. And I was like, well, I'm just here to let you know that I am rejecting most of the things you have said about life. And she was like, “Oh, interesting. Keep going.” And I was in grad school at the time, but I realized how much the expectations she had placed on me, even though I rejected them every time I heard them, they were still like holding me back. Even when I was an undergrad - graduating early - three and a half years, and she was like, “oh but you're thinking about going to graduate school? You should get married first. What if your husband doesn't agree with that?” And I'm like somebody who doesn't exist cannot agree with what I'm wanting to do? But she was dead serious. Cause for her women don't work, they stay home, they nurture children, they do all these things. And I was like yeah that's holding me back even though I say I know better. So she and I had this drag out one day where I was just like, what's up? Like how can you not support me in ministry? And it came to like to tears and she was like, I am afraid of what they will do to you. And I'm like I get it but what choice do I have? If God has called, how can I not answer? 

So there were little whispers along the way but I realized it was the big guiding hand from my dad, you know, from like literally affirming…no matter what I did you know, he was there for it. And it's not that my mom was not supportive, as it was she could not be supportive at the time. And I realized now the rift it caused between her and my home church where I grew up because this was her support system and yet it was very rejecting of me. So it was one thing when I went to seminary and I was like oh I'm going to teach. It was another when I went home to my…the pastor that I grew up with and I explained, you know what, I'm doing field education now. And I have to do some preaching and he said, “Oh, that's interesting.” He said, “You know in places like New Jersey, New York, maybe Michigan, you know, they do things like that, but we don't do that down here.” 

And he reached in his pocket, gave me $50 and was like, “All right, well you go on now.” I remember when I left, I got to the parking lot before I started crying. And I'm like, I want to make sure I'm clear - the man who baptized me, who taught me everything I know about pastoral care - cause like I said, I was a really good student but I liked to skip school. And one of the things before I started going to the university, cause there's ninth and 10th grade, then 11th and 12th at two different campuses. 11th to 12th I would skip and go to the university because it was closer but ninth and 10th I would skip and go to church! And I'm like, "what are you doing?" And he's like, “What are you doing, why are you here?” I'm like, cause I don't want to be at school. And what would a good pastor do other than say, “all right well come with me.” And he would go do his sick visits. This is where I learned bedside manner and pastoral care - from him. But I would go to the hospitals, I would go to people's homes. I would go with him into the spaces where people were at some of their lowest points and I'm observing but I'm realizing, on this side of it, no, I'm learning. And I'm being trained in the way of pastoral care, which if I had been a boy, he would have done this purposefully. 

But in the way that the world works, it's still gave me a bit of the internship/apprenticeship that a male would have gotten from him. And so as I'm in the parking lot crying about it, I dust my feet cause what more can you do? And it was painful because we were in a close relationship, as long as I stayed in my place. And here I was letting him know I'm definitely about to get out of my place, so yeah. But we're here. 

Patrick: What was seminary like? Was there affirming…cause I imagine that that, just physically, that's a lot of miles between where you're going to school and where home was. 

K. Monet: Yeah, and I needed those miles. I needed those miles right? Yeah, I did Princeton Theological Seminary - they're definitely in the affirming space because you know, the Presbyterians, they've done women in ministry for a long time. And so even as I was mentioning being from Alabama and not coming from an affirming space, people would look at me like, wow that's crazy. And I'm like, how is this crazy? And I'm realizing in different regions of the country this doesn't exist. These battles aren't here. They're there in different ways because you have, of course what I experienced in some of the Northern churches - they'll affirm you in ministry but they don't put you up to preach. They don't send you out to preach. They don't actually give you some of the same opportunities that they would give the males. And so Princeton was definitely an affirming space. 

I did my internship at Princeton University's office of spiritual and religious life which is where I got the bug for a higher education spiritual and religious life ministry, in a religious and professional affairs. And I worked with dean Deborah Blanks who, she had been a Naval chaplain and then from there she went to Brown and from Brown to Princeton. So very straight-laced very, you know, "Miss Monet you should wear your pantyhose, close toed shoes, button-down blouse, every Sunday." And I'm like it's July! What am I going to do with pantyhose in July? But this is like the training, right? And then I get people like my preaching professor who was Cleophus LaRue who was very intentional about, I'm going to take you to lunch because that's what I used to do for my male ministers. And I realized that oh, these reparations to up and coming women preachers and potential ministers. But I remember being at lunch with him and him talking to me about you should go for the track of ordination. You have gifts for preaching. You should not only be licensed, you should be ordained. And that was the first time I'd ever had a conversation about that. And I was like nah Doc, I don't know if that's for me. But it dropped those seeds of affirmation because, of course, you know God drops these things in your heart but we push them to the side. They're seeds, but the soil wasn't ready yet. And that is the analogy I've been talking about. When you talk about cultivating there are times when there are seeds that if you throw it in just any soil, it will choke out the seed because you say they're too acidic or too alkaline for that particular seed. And so I just needed more time, more people and I think more experiences to finally break me out and say you know what let's do it! Do it or it kills you, right? I always say that the calling of God is like the call that you cannot answer and yet you can't hang it up? But we try, we try. 

When I was in seminary, I had a bit of introduction to FTE because FTE used to go to AAR and have these great receptions, and I know how to crash a good reception. But I wasn't an FTE participant or recipient until after seminary and it was a chance ride with a friend who was telling me about a program another one of our colleagues was in, Jevon Caldwell-Gross. And she was like, oh, did you hear about the program that he's in, he's at a church in New York and includes housing and a residency. You should look into it. And I was like, nah, nah.

K. Monet: Jevon and I had been colleagues when we were in seminary and I was like, let me call and check up on them, you know, see how things are going. And he was telling me about this great program. He was like, you know what, we're actually looking for the next resident. You should apply for this. And I was like I don't really feel called to parish ministry. I don't really know, you know? And I remember applying for it and then just a lot more time passed. And I was really just trying to discern, because I was back in Alabama at this point. So this was kind of this tearing of the soul cause I'd gone to seminary and then I was doing everything I could to not go back home to Alabama. Because if I left seminary and didn't have a job, it would look like they were right. That women had no place pursuing ministry. 

So here I am back in Alabama hiding my tears of, oh God, what's next, what's next? I got this big fancy degree and nothing to do with it. And eventually Concord Baptist Church of Christ out of Brooklyn, New York called and was like let's get you up here to interview. And it moved actually quite swiftly, I think I interviewed in November and started in December and I was honest on my interview. I was just like, I can't really say if I'm really feeling called to pastor, and this is for a program for people who want to pastor. And I remember Dr. Simpson looking me square in the eye and saying, cause pastoring has never been an option. And I was just like, oh - ok. You know. And I was like, so I want to make sure I'm clear. So I don't want you to think that I'm lying to get in here. And he was just like, but you're going to have to try it on to see if it fits. And true enough you know, I enjoyed being in the parish. I do believe at some point I will go back to the parish, but similar to the conversation of the seed and the soil, I don't think the soil is ready just yet . But the congregation of 
Concord were incredibly loving, gave me all the tools and building blocks that I feel I needed to move into higher education religious life. 

Higher education chaplaincy is different than all the other chaplaincies because it is much more like a parish. You actually need to know the tools for how to be in residence in a parish in order to be in residence in a higher education space. So whereas hospital chaplaincy, hospice chaplaincy are, you meet someone who's usually at a low point in life and you never see them again, residential higher education chaplaincy is either I know you already, or you're at the lowest point in life, and now I walk with you beyond this point. And that is very much how the parish is set up. So yeah, I met FTE on the other side, while I was in TiM and then I won't let them get rid of me. Because I really wish to give back to the next generation of ministers what was given to me. And what I didn't see was me when I was coming up in the ranks, right? There were other women, but they were also like the second round of ceiling breakers, so to speak. 

I remember one of the best days that I'd ever experienced was at Concord. It was probably my last year - this would have been 2010 - and one of our youth were having a conversation with the youth pastor, who was Shakima North. And she was saying to her, “Do you know that there are some churches that don't believe in women in ministry?” And the young girls were like, “That's not true!” And I was like oh my God, they can't even fathom a world where women cannot do ministry. And I think that's the signs of a great church, that they could affirm men and women equally in such a space that the younger generations can't even believe there was ever a world where this is just the second round of this generation doing this. So yeah 

Patrick: Wow. How do you have the conversation moving from parish ministry to higher education, and thinking about that's a very different context. You named it as a different context. When does that start popping in your imagination, like maybe I want to work on a college campus? 

K. Monet: You would think it would have been there the whole time. So, like I said, when I was in seminary, I did my internship, kicking and screaming, at Princeton University's office of religious life. Now I'd love to say it's because I had an interest in higher education chaplaincy but the truth is it was the last day to sign up for Field Ed and I was dragging my feet because again, I was like, no, I don't need Field Ed cause I'm going to be a professor of early church history, with a focus in mysticism. I don't need all this practicum. And it's the last day, I was getting like threatening emails and I sat down in our dining hall and a student, Bridgett Green, who I don't think I'd ever sat with and eaten with was like, well you should just take my position over at Princeton University. So I reach out to dean Blanks - probably just a really horrible email. And we have probably a really bad interview but dean Blanks said, I could see in you that you had never had the opportunity to grow these gifts. I loved working with the students particularly because of the theological conversations you can have with students. Like you're in the church and they just want to know, you know, how do I know I'm saved? No, not these students. They want to know what is the metaphysical makeup of the blood that is able to transcend time and space because how can it reach to the highest mountain and the lowest valley? And I'm like, oh my God I love this question! Cause now I gotta go look up physics because what you're asking me is physics, right? You want me to speak your language and to do this you get to progress the study. And I loved everything about that. I loved turning the campus on its head over a conversation where I guess we leaned a little too close to universalism as a theological idea for them. There was a student, who was like, “Um minister Rice, I have friends who are Jewish, some of them are Muslim. I got one Hindu friend and they're great! Are they going to hell?” And my colleague and I had already discussed this to say, all right, let's agree on where our theology is. We will never disagree in front of the students. And we gave a great answer! We said, “We do not know what God will do in the end, for, we know we are all saved by grace. Man they flipped over tables, chairs were flying. No! No! The Bible is...I'm talking about it was drag out the room exploded. And it didn't just explode that day, it exploded for the next six weeks. Like the religion department got involved. Like all the deans had to get involved. That answer did not suit them and yet I'm satisfied to say that in the end, and this was very unsatisfying, someone in the religion department at the time said exactly what I said. And the students were like, well, we all know we're all saved by grace so we can't say what God won't do in the end. And I'm like I know we did not just land back where I started! 

But to be in that space in the fascination of these minds willing to think about this. This isn't a conversation you're going to get in the church - in the average church, right? And so I deeply enjoyed that. I actually did that internship again the next year, not as the internship, but dean Blanks wanted to do some writing and focusing. So they're like, you know the routine you guys can kind of handle this So you would think that would have been the bug, but no, it still wasn't it. It did not enter my brain that this is a career path, cause all I could understand is church and parish, right. And so even as I left Concord and a part of my burnout was oh, this is not theologically stimulating enough. And I was like oh there is no church for me. There is no space for me. I think I was here backpacking through Europe, in Atlanta…AKA taking a burnout break from the program that was designed to not let me burn out. I still burned out, but those were for reasons that were not avoidable. And it was while I was here resting and after I got good and rested, two positions became open - one at Brown University and the other at Wake Forest University. Oh I am so qualified for this job I forgot I did these internships. Like it just never crossed my mind. 

And for me, it was supposed to be the holdover. I was like two maybe three years and then I'll go ahead and cross over to the next thing. Maybe the church will be ready, right. And as I'm now in my 10th year at Wake Forest, which is crazy to me. I'm like you know what's different about being in higher ed versus the parish is I get a new congregation every four years. Whereas if you're in a parish you have to wait on that deacon to die, I just need to help you graduate. And then we get to start this thing again. But the questions, they evolve but they're really still the same, you know, how do I gain meaning for my life? Well, how do I learn purpose? How do I live a life that matters to someone other than me? 

And so it's great great work. But I can feel the spaces now where I'm like, the world is almost ready. You know the soul is almost ready to branch out into what this can look like next. I'm actually realizing that higher ed has been a good training ground in terms of innovation and listening and learning the data sets so that you can actually address where the people are versus continuously feeding them, like parishes do, according to like the church cycle. Cause you always have these annual days. Whereas you learn in higher ed how to respond to the moment. So when you have a curriculum set up or an idea, strategic goals for the year, but then you have the year that begins with Michael Brown, all of that goes out the door as it should. When the world goes into a pandemic and you'd have to make these pivots, all of that goes out of the door, but you still show up. And you must do it much quicker because the age group and the mindset, they are digital natives, and they are capable of pivoting in a way that I don't think any of us have the ambidexterity for. Cause even at this very young-older age, I'm already like aging out on technology much faster than I was at least five years ago. So. 

Patrick: After 10 years, or almost 10 years, I mean, you have students that have graduated now. We'll have folks who will listen to this, who will want to go into campus ministry. What are those stories like? What are people telling you about the impact you had? 

K. Monet: Well two things - I have no humility about this. You know, higher ed is, and I'd like to say this for chaplaincy, we're not simply student facing. So we're undergraduates, graduate students, faculty and staff, and we have Wake Forest University School of Divinity. I have had six interns to date and I've lost not one sailor from chaplaincy. They have all gone into this work and I have no humility about it. I have no chill whatsoever about that! If they're interested in going into higher education chaplaincy, for those coming out of undergrad or in any aspects, they must first know that it's higher education chaplaincy and not campus ministry that they want to do. 

And so the differences there is that a campus minister is typically sent by a sending body. They do not work for the university. They are similar to being a vendor. An affiliated ministry. And usually they are sent by a denominational sending body, whether it's the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Baptist or non-denominational organizations. But when you are hired by the university for chaplaincy work you might be aligned so that you're like for protestants or maybe for Jewish life, Muslim life or a particular subset, but for the most part, you are for all people regardless of their religious identification, regardless of their ideologies, regardless of where they are.

And there's a great rise, even right now in humanist chaplains, which I think we're going to see even more of that coming up soon. And so if they're interested in higher education chaplaincy for sure, knowing that they may never get the opportunity to preach and proclaim from a Christian perspective, that they will have to learn a different language, then I will say to them, Hey kudos. Here's the thing, it is a little bit difficult to break into. And to just find any of the places where you can, where there's internships, they do welcome you bringing your traditions and bringing your full self, but I am a fan of it because it is a place where you can become incredibly expansive in your theology, expansive in the creativity of your Christianity. Until you have really put Christ in culture and dialogued your theology in a space that doesn't take it automatically as the starting place, you really don't get the fun of growing as a Christian or as a Christian minister to actually animate the scriptures that says, “the one who wins souls is wise.”

And it really is saying that it takes a lot of wisdom to do this work. And it also alters what you define as winning a soul or, you know, proselytizing the gospel. So if you're interested in this work one thing you want to do is definitely get connected, do an internship either at a university or in your graduate studies and just kind of linger as close to it as you can get. But unfortunately, someone either has to like retire or die for the positions to shift because some of the newer positions are being created again for Muslim life and for Hindu life, and of course for humanist. So it's a little bit more difficult from a Christian background now than it would have been say 20 years ago, or 10 years ago. So that doesn't sound very hopeful 

Patrick: Well I mean I was going to take it even more depressing. I did a couple years at Northeastern, paid for by the University. I was going to ask you about the hard stuff. My recollection was religious/political stuff comes up. You get called into departmental stuff any suicides on campus like these are heavy, heavy, heavy heavy things. This is not just hosting a small group every Wednesday 

K. Monet: There is no small group on Wednesday, right? There are staff meetings and emergency crisis control. So higher education chaplaincy, at least for my setting and most settings, is crisis control. If you do not have an ombudsperson on your campus, you become the ombudsperson, right? So when there is conflict in offices, when there is conflict between students and administrations you are still like the moral compass to say, here is where our ideals are, here is where we are, how do we move closer to this space? But yes campus death is, I hate to say, where you shine cause it seems kind of morbid of me and a little bit weird - But the beauty of teaching the lifecycle at this stage of life especially to students who feel like they have their whole lives in front of them...no campus suicide, mental health is in a place we've never seen it before. I am utterly amazed we made it through this last year without a successful incident - not an attempted, but a successful incident. 

These things can definitely be considered heavy but they're heavy in a different way because you get to walk with the people who have survived it. And also walk with the people who are considering it. And that can stretch people theologically in a way that a lot of people are not willing go there. It's difficult when you sit for weeks and talk with someone who is literally fantasizing about you know suicide and how do you stay present with them to walk through it, to safely hit the panic button so that it can be an intervention without losing their trust because that's the last thing that you want to do. 

But it's all fun for me. It's all fun work - heavy work, but the burnout is inevitable. The real question is not how do you not burn out what is the point at which you realize you're burning out? What are the markers that pull you back that help you to realize, okay we've got to pull our own panic button? Because it is taxing cause everything is urgent with this age group, right? If I don't respond fast enough will you then move into this very dark space? Will you fall off? Everything feels like it's the end of the world, at that space. And that's not even just mental health, that it's also the crises of life. And you do have very tangible things with the students who are like experiencing food insecurities, shelter insecurities, which universities often overlook. That's that level of the population that a lot of people want to pretend doesn't exist. But it is the crisis and it's difficult when you're able to not just be in it, but you want to respond to every single thing. And learning how to create boundaries for which you don't hold yourself responsible if things go left. So if you don't answer that 12:00 PM, 1:00 AM emergency text message and in the morning, there is no morning for that person, how do you not hold yourself in the tandem of the responsibility for that? It does happen. And such are the downsides, you know, I hate to say the job hazards but the downsides of the work. But the ability to walk with people as they consider their own meaning and purpose at such a pivotal point in their lives - the rewards outweigh the crises any day. 

Patrick: Wow. And so I got one last question for you. I ask everyone who comes on here, this same question, and I'm going all the way back to when you're four year, you're affirmed in ministry to the folks who were around you, your dad, how much of your sense of call comes from the community and your story and how much comes from your own sense of call that, I know the world is not affirming of this in this moment but this is, this is what I've been called to? 

K. Monet: Oh, my goodness. If I had to do percentages, I would say 100%, 100% for both of them, you know? But moreso the inner call for self, because I think that in affirming and acknowledging the call within myself gives permission to the community to do the same. I wish that we were living in a world that was much more communal, but even in the world that I grew up in, it was a communal enough world, especially having a church family that may not (as a church) have affirmed women in ministry, you still had individuals who did. Who would whisper, who would say the things and be very present, [as] long as you didn't make any big announcements, right? It begins in the self. You affirm it in yourself, you hear it for yourself, you affirm it in yourself and I think the people who come along in a community who support you, who whisper these things, are the breadcrumbs that pull you back on track when you’re convinced a different road would be easier. Because nothing about this road is easy. It is not easy, it is not comfortable. It is not ideal. And yet I dare not steer anywhere other than here.  

So I would say a hundred percent, a hundred percent for both but it definitely begins in myself…and this wonderful FTE family that I want to thank one more time for the Dominican Republic experience. 

Patrick: Well thank you so much I mean it's been such a gift, an inspiring story. You're leading, you're making space for the four-year-old behind thats seen and proud and cheering you on and we're just grateful. Grateful for you. 

I hope you enjoyed listening to the Sound of the Genuine and Reverend K. Monet’s story. If it was inspiring to you, do us a favor and leave us a five-star review. It helps get this show into the ears of other listeners. As always, I want to thank my team for putting this story into the world. Our executive producer, Elsie Barnhart, Heather Wallace, and as always, @siryalibeats for his wonderful music.  We hope you find meaning and purpose in your lives and are grateful you spent a little time with us here at the Sound of the Genuine.